Painful but True

['PR']

If you haven't checked out last nights pod, I urge you to do so ASAP! With that being said, one of the topics discussed was the possibility of removing questionable players from our prestigious Hall of Fame. The question is, should we remove all of Sean's stars from the HOF, and should we even go a step further and vacate his championships? For more details, check out the pod and cast your vote!

[Peter]

I vote yes. Vacate all of his former Cubs/Angels players and championship. There's no room for edited players and fraudulent championships.

[mike]

I think they should still be in HOF. They still were insane even though they were juiced. That being said I think they should have an "*" next to their names. As far as his championships go same thing applies. Now if Sean ever wants to come on here and sincerely clear the air on exactly what he did and did not do then maybe you can go back and take the "*" off some of them.

['PR']

I think they should still be in HOF. They still were insane even though they were juiced. That being said I think they should have an "*" next to their names. As far as his championships go same thing applies. Now if Sean ever wants to come on here and sincerely clear the air on exactly what he did and did not do then maybe you can go back and take the "*" off some of them.

Isn't putting an asterisk the same as basically saying they aren't legitimately HOFers?

[mike]

It's acknowledging that they are awesome players but there is no 100% to say so and so is juiced. Like matty said we basically found the syringes but we can't exactly tell who's butt they went into.

[mattynokes]

I posed the question on the Pod since it seems some are in favor of this and I felt others were either uneasy to bring it up or just didn't know the circumstances. I do have a little story that at the time, I found odd, but now I think it makes sense:

Back when I was doing the Top Prospects Lists, Sean commented to me that he felt Peter Carson was too low on the list. This was early in Carson's minor league career, so as someone rated around 75 overall, he was going to be passed up by closer to ready low-to-mid 80's. I saw where Carson could jump very high on the lists in the future, but not before he proved something. It didn't add up at the time, but now it looks as close to evidence that Sean was adamant about Carson because he already knew what his future projections were and that he was going to have a long and extended career in FCM.

I will say that I question if he edited players on the Cubs. Why one team and not the other? I can't answer why he would, but players like James Aitkenhead don't have that extended career that Angles stars Demont Williams, Tobey Horton, Tim Vandyke, and Carson had. It's too much of a coincidence to get THAT lucky on so many players having good careers into their late 30's and early 40's. You may get a few here and there, but not like that in relatively the same time period. I believe it's obvious that Sean edited Peak End and also edited Longevity, so that even in decline, they didn't see drastic effects of aging.

I also do not believe that this is like the current, real life HOF status where we just aren't sure if some guys were clean and others were not. This is like entering in Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Rafael Palmerio, and Mark McGwire into the HOF with ZERO ties or suspension to PEDs and then suddenly a mountain of evidence comes down on them. Guys like Sean Vogel, Donovan Pace, Steve Miller, and Brett Cloyd are pure and clean. Those Angels players are not.

It's acknowledging that they are awesome players but there is no 100% to say so and so is juiced. Like matty said we basically found the syringes but we can't exactly tell who's butt they went into.

No, no, Mike. When I said that in the chat, I meant it as we can't 100% prove Sean cheated with an admission of guilt or video evidence. Just like you can't prove someone juiced if all you find are syringes. However, if you can't explain the syringes, then why do you have syringes? There's enough circumstantial evidence here.

[mike]

So we can put to rest the debate. This is a conversation I had. I stillthink in real life the guy is a good man just cause I have him on facebook and I get to see what he does from time to time. But as far as moguler goes and a person I'd ever want back. No just no.

Let me start by saying having you on facebook and having things pop up in my news feed leads me to believe your a great guy in real life and a great dad. My time with you in mogul was great too. You were looked upon as a friend and father figure. With that said it was pretty heart breaking to find out you cheated in some way shape or form with 100% certainty and a bunch more accusations where it's all but 100% sure you tampered with other stuff too. Recently we have done a look back and have done some history things for league. Like top 50 players of all time, we even have a hall of fame we all vote on. A lot of your players are obviously on that list. And some people don't want them there. Long story short people know you cheated to what extend is unkown and it may not mean much but to some like me would mean a lot to know exactly what you did and didn't do. Maybe you don't care about mogul anymore and don't care about what you may or may haven't done and that's fine, and even if you do come on and clear the air some won't believe you anyway and honestly I couldn't say I blame them. With that being said I still think you're a good guy and I don't know what came over you to make you wanna cheat in an online video game for no money. You may never read this or I may never know if you have but would be great to see you come back on. Take care,

Huh? No idea what you are talking about. Really don't need the drama with what is being fished up on something years ago.

not meaning to cause any drama. after all its just a game. im just happy to seeyour doing well man

Thanks, same to you. I still have no idea what you are talking about with cheating. Thought we squashed the whole thing with my nephew a long time ago

no thats not it
this is a whole different thing. like u jucing players, possibly rigging a ws.

Huh? Oh well, no idea what you are talking about but that is drama I don't feel like dealing with.

hows your health doing these days

Better
good to hear man. sorry to bring something up like that. have a godo one i gotta head out

[AndyP]

Without going into players and checking their profiles I can't prove anything on those guys. So it feels like Mike Piazza and the HOF to me, so keep them.

[mattynokes]

After chewing on this:

1. I don't think his Cubs players should be considered for removal, just his Angels players. Seidel didn't having an absurdly long career, Aitkenhead and Prywes both were doing the same thing at the same time, there was Widdup and Pace, and I believe Romero was passed around a lot, so giving CHC credit is more of picking one team (as I recall).

Just because someone cheats, doesn't mean they were doing it from the get-go. His players with the Cubs just didn't have that similar all too coincidental longevity that his Angels players did, so I would put it up for a vote if guys like Demont, Horton, Vandyke, Carson, and anyone else that got in under Sean's Angels.

2. Since I don't think the Cubs players should be removed, I don't think the Cubs championships should be removed. I think removing his name from under the Angles logo would suffice. To a prospective GM, removing the logo as well looks more like an error on our part rather than acknowledging it was vacated.

['PR']

After chewing on this:

1. I don't think his Cubs players should be considered for removal, just his Angels players. Seidel didn't having an absurdly long career, Aitkenhead and Prywes both were doing the same thing at the same time, there was Widdup and Pace, and I believe Romero was passed around a lot, so giving CHC credit is more of picking one team (as I recall).

Just because someone cheats, doesn't mean they were doing it from the get-go. His players with the Cubs just didn't have that similar all too coincidental longevity that his Angels players did, so I would put it up for a vote if guys like Demont, Horton, Vandyke, Carson, and anyone else that got in under Sean's Angels.

2. Since I don't think the Cubs players should be removed, I don't think the Cubs championships should be removed. I think removing his name from under the Angles logo would suffice. To a prospective GM, removing the logo as well looks more like an error on our part rather than acknowledging it was vacated.

I'd be totally fine with keeping those players in if we removed his name from under the banners, but I feel he should be removed from all, not just the LAA ones. It doesn't seem legit if we take some from here and leave some over there. The players can stay if Sean's name is stripped from the archives.