Do You Want To See A Tanking Guideline?

[hokeyrules]

I also feel there is a big difference between tanking one season and tanking multiple seasons. I mean I know relatively speaking that this is towards my team and what I am doing in Florida, but I did the same thing in Texas and they have gotten two world series from it, not to mention Texas was in a mess, and Florida was in a mess as well. If you look at real life most teams who throw away a season usually are able to bounce back fairly quick, and next season I should be able to win 70 games with the team I have. Same as Atlanta did in this league this year.

If you want to look for a reason why teams like me do not put in players for a sim or two normally, you can look at Iraldo for my team. I mean it is a freak accident, and I may have put him in regardless, but I put him in mainly because this talk has been going on and I figured it might get some people aka Peter off my back, and now he is out for almost 400 days. Was there any point in putting him in? Not really, but now it could potentially cost my team in the future if he were to drop.

That being said I do not think I am 100% tanking, I have played my best major leaguers for the year, and yes some people may differentiate what the definition of a major league player is. To me I usually go by players who are peaked or actually have good numbers in the majors.

I will say in Texas I probably tanked for 2-3 seasons, but they also actually needed a full reload. And some of you are saying tanking is not realistic, but most people in Canada when looking at the Blue Jays or the Toronto Raptors wish that both of those teams would suck majorly for 2-3 years so they can finally build properly, so there are some fans that will still support tankers.

[mattynokes]

I also feel there is a big difference between tanking one season and tanking multiple seasons. I mean I know relatively speaking that this is towards my team and what I am doing in Florida, but I did the same thing in Texas and they have gotten two world series from it, not to mention Texas was in a mess, and Florida was in a mess as well. If you look at real life most teams who throw away a season usually are able to bounce back fairly quick, and next season I should be able to win 70 games with the team I have. Same as Atlanta did in this league this year.

If you want to look for a reason why teams like me do not put in players for a sim or two normally, you can look at Iraldo for my team. I mean it is a freak accident, and I may have put him in regardless, but I put him in mainly because this talk has been going on and I figured it might get some people aka Peter off my back, and now he is out for almost 400 days. Was there any point in putting him in? Not really, but now it could potentially cost my team in the future if he were to drop.

That being said I do not think I am 100% tanking, I have played my best major leaguers for the year, and yes some people may differentiate what the definition of a major league player is. To me I usually go by players who are peaked or actually have good numbers in the majors.

I will say in Texas I probably tanked for 2-3 seasons, but they also actually needed a full reload. And some of you are saying tanking is not realistic, but most people in Canada when looking at the Blue Jays or the Toronto Raptors wish that both of those teams would suck majorly for 2-3 years so they can finally build properly, so there are some fans that will still support tankers.

Right, the single season tanking isn't an issue, it's the prolonged tanking where you're delaying competing just to rack up more top 5 or top 10 picks that's the problem. I agree with others that have said tanking isn't your best option here, but it still works. Delay your rebuild, which shouldn't take more than 5 or 6 years, max. Then you get a couple extra years of early round draft picks, which is where the dynasties start.

Injuries, eh, maybe, but Mogul doesn't have in-game injuries and it can take days for injuries to show up. Plus a good health player that has a severe injury isn't good example for why prospects shouldn't be called up. In that line of thinking, you shouldn't call prospects up until you think you're ready to win the World Series. And that would be Tanking 101.

The big issue is when I see teams with low 70s or even 60s filling out their teams. Surely FAs are better than low 70s and no question about the 60s. The big thing I would like to see is, if you're gonna rebuild, spend some money in FA. I'm not going to say how much you should spend. I'm not going to say where you draw the line on if it's an upgrade or not. But the way I look at it when I rebuild is two simple questions, "Would I keep the player on my bench or bullpen if I were competing? Or in the least would I sign him as AAA insurance?"

If you're starting players on a rebuilding team that you'd normally have on the bench for your competing team, then you're likely going to end up in the 60-70 win mark. Just don't play guys that don't even have a reason to be on a Triple-A team.

[hickoxb2]

If it's obvious to enough people that a team is tanking, then do something about it. Otherwise this whole conversation is kind of pointless. If it's an issue, address the GM and if they don't have a good excuse, then go from there.

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Also, the line between rebuilding and tanking can get blurred sometimes, like what Mr. Hokeypants brought up.

[Cdawg]

idk about some of you, but it's god damn hard for me to find a prospect that pans out. It took Northcutt 8 years to full develop and alot of my ML team is full of 3rd 4th and 5th round guys. IDK if it's the guys I pick, how I'm moving them along in the minors(which has never been an issue in any other league that I know of) or if you guys know something that I don't about prospects in this league, but I draft horribly. That leaves me w/ 1 option, Free agency, to build a winning team. Except that I have one of the 5 lowest payrolls in the league. I can't be competitive on a yearly basis because of this strategy b/c of my lack of payroll.

These are all excuses for why Oakland can't win in this league, but it's not a recipe for success. Its easier to tank than it is to trade the players for picks or prospects b/c those 2 are at a much more valuable and premium price. I can't get 2 1st round talents for Malone, or find a decent offer for Northcutt, but those same players in other leagues are going for 7 and 5 players.


Just a couple points I thought interesting.

[mattynokes]

idk about some of you, but it's god damn hard for me to find a prospect that pans out. It took Northcutt 8 years to full develop and alot of my ML team is full of 3rd 4th and 5th round guys. IDK if it's the guys I pick, how I'm moving them along in the minors(which has never been an issue in any other league that I know of) or if you guys know something that I don't about prospects in this league, but I draft horribly. That leaves me w/ 1 option, Free agency, to build a winning team. Except that I have one of the 5 lowest payrolls in the league. I can't be competitive on a yearly basis because of this strategy b/c of my lack of payroll.

These are all excuses for why Oakland can't win in this league, but it's not a recipe for success. Its easier to tank than it is to trade the players for picks or prospects b/c those 2 are at a much more valuable and premium price. I can't get 2 1st round talents for Malone, or find a decent offer for Northcutt, but those same players in other leagues are going for 7 and 5 players.


Just a couple points I thought interesting.

Since you've made this public, I'll say my honest thoughts. Saying it's an excuse is a perfect way to label it, since we all know what they say about excuses...

You can't compare what you could get in other leagues, they're completely different universes. And if production is relative, Northcutt wouldn't get much no matter where he goes. He's poor defensively (an average catcher is around 85 arm, 80 field, 80-85 handle), his defensive stats prove that. Then he only has one season of 800+ production offensively.

Northcutt is only rated a 92 because of his power. Mogul says a catcher should be a power guy, just like it does for corner outfielders. Honestly, I'd rather have Tanabe on NYY. He's a switch hitter, so he's valuable from either side of the plate, and he plays good defense. He hits for a good average and gets on base. It's not to say I think Tanabe is 90 value, but I'd certainly say he's 3-5 points more valuable than his overall suggests. He's a reliable guy to have at the bottom of the order that extends innings and you know what you're getting defensively.

As for Malone, he's good. The problem is he'll be 32 next season. If you were attempting to trade him five years ago, then you'd have no problem getting two 1st round values out of him. However, now, people are going to be weary of him starting to decline. You can't use up all of a player's good years and expect the kind of return out of him if he was guaranteed five years of success. I think people will view him as a two year option and if they so happen to get more years out of him, then it's a bonus. And you can say he's rated well and has decent health, but Jose Rabena was a 93 at the end of 2034 and then by the end of 2036 had fallen all the way down to a 74. Frank Prywes on HOU some years earlier suffered the same fate.

At the draft there are times when I'm left wondering about your picks. I can't remember exact details, but I know there are initial builds or some things in the player's amateur stats that's a huge red flag to people like andy, mike, hokey, or myself.

Overall, you are great for this league and the amount of seasons you've put in. I just think you sometimes fall in that HB-syndrome where once you have a good team, you get too comfortable. People like who I just mentioned above never sit tight on their team. We may not be always looking for that blockbuster deal, but we're always looking for ways to improve our team or fix a hole an injury has left us. I do think you try to hold fast to too many of your players and then try to reap value after they've completely busted when no one will want them at that point.

We've been in many leagues together, so I know you've it in you to create a winner in Oakland.

[Cdawg]

I shopped Malone for quite a while and his asking price was always 2 first round types my response "He's good but I can't do that." This was at least 3 years ago." for players who I hear "it's too bad he plays in oakland he'd have better stats in toronto or boston." then why is that type of asking price going to matter?(I've heard this type of GM to GM banter all the time, where b/c I'm in oakland the wind and celestial movement and Jesus are keeping my production numbers low for my hitters.)
Again it's b/c these prospects are put on such a pedestal that in some ways your yanking teeth when you ask for something. DP's are a little bit easier.
And you're two different place, but they have the same stats and they are still bringing that kind of haul(granted it was a 29 year old in Spencer's build)

And I'm glad you mentioned "builds and ammy" stats as a way to determine prospects. I don't do a whole lot of pre draft scouting, and I def don't have time to scout their college or HS stats to see if 'guy A is better than guy B' based off of that. I've drafted the same way in every league, and this is the only one where I'm constantly watch guys fail. There was a time when I first started here, where there was a 5-8 season stretch of only having 1 high DP player(1st of 2nd round)that I drafted on the team. As it comes to drafting I've see GM's take a 61/86 over the current crop of 65/89-91 and wonder "what does he know that I don't". My strategy has always been to take guys w/ higher peaks(not the highest) but I also compare guys base off their bases as well.


"We may not be always looking for that blockbuster deal, but we're always looking for ways to improve our team or fix a hole an injury has left us. I do think you try to hold fast to too many of your players and then try to reap value after they've completely busted when no one will want them at that point."

Andy mentioned about 8-10 teams as post #10 and the interesting thing, he named every team w/ a high budget, the only team he didn't mention w/ a budget about 150 was KCR. What does that have to do w/ anything? You guys are able to offer better contracts to Free Agents, thus you are able to go ahead a fill holes. we aren't all on a level playing field, nor are some of the teams even close. I've said it before, and I was a winner then, give me 110 as a budget and I'll be a consistent winner. as it stands now I can't fill a $15M hole before I have guys in place b/c at that point I'm wasting 1/6 of my budget on a useless FA that, after a bad 1st half, I can't even try to move b/c of sign and trade rules.(a whole season is a long time to force us to hold a guy if the decision isn't panning out.)
The option to move teams has been there for me, but I've become attached to Oakland, and it seems like the guys who DO want to move are those who for 30 seasons have been winning and winning and winning.

[AndyP]

This topic, unsurprisingly, is completely derailed. We won't be making a rule about tanking.