TEX / PHI

***mattynokes*** · 09-05-2011, 05:50 PM

Not a trade mod, but I noticed something that has yet to be brought up.

How about the fact that Texas has Bruce Withrow on the bench? He's respectable defensively and can play 3B. In about a half season's work last season he posted good numbers. And I would have to say Texas' assessment of Cobb being a good defender is anything but true. Sure he doesn't make many errors but he has a subpar arm and very poor range.

Next, I would question how good Cobb can be offensively. Contact doesn't equal Batting Average. Have a look at what 2B Ken Smith (now on OAK, I believe) and my current 1B Mike Chitty have as their AVG and Contact ratings. Smith has a much better contact rating, yet came in around a .260 average in COL. In Chitty's time here he's been about a .270 hitter. The reason being is that Smith is about a 55 K guy while Chitty will K around 125 times in a full season. Smith is well above average at avoiding strikeouts (improving contact) while Chitty is below average when it comes to fending off the strike out. I would estimate Smith's true contact to be about 76 while Chitty's true contact is about 80.

When looking at Cobb, he's probably about a 60 K guy per season. This too is well above average at avoiding strikeouts, which means he won't hit for what his contact rating might suggest. A 91 Contact is usually around a .305 hitter, but I wouldn't think he'd be able to consistently hit over .290 unless he's in a hitter's park.

mike · 09-05-2011, 05:59 PM

Tom I think the problem lies within the fact that you could have traded 1 or 2 of those specs and the deal would be fair. For that kind of package you could pick up a league all star, not one of the greats but someone really good. They will give you a chance to re-work the deal. I'm not a mod btw either.

***AndyP*** · 09-05-2011, 06:40 PM

So will some of the people that have historically spent hours bitching at me have something to say for why we protect new GMs and why the "no one else offered me anything" defenses have been very fairly moderated so far? Because trades like this are why we do that.

Texas, I understand your reason but this is a veto. You simply don't have a concept for the value of the draft picks you are trading and that is remarkably clear by this offer. Historically, the talent you're getting are worth a 4th/5th combo at most. One could argue you'd get a better player if you signed Jacob Armstrong from the FA list.

We don't let new GMs "learn this lesson" by getting slammed in trades because it's bad for the league. While I'm sure you would have every intention of continuing to GM the team even after you realize what a disaster this is, but as a whole the league can't chance that or allow another team in the league to take such clear advantage of a newbie's lack of prospective on player/pick value. You're welcome to acquire these players, just do it within the same galaxy of value. You can even overpay, just not to this level of ridiculousness.

09-05-2011, 06:47 PM

Again, in MY assessment (not anyone else) this is a trade I like. Did I trade my best player? Did I trade any of my best prospects? Did I bury the team? Sure, Matteson is going to be a closer one day, but I have Boyd sitting there about to take that role and he is young. Is Cobb a great defender. Looks good to me. And who cares if I have a guy in the bench that can play 3rd? Can he leadoff? No, and he had 57 Ks in 60 games last season. Why would I want to play that guy? Using that logic, I shouldnt have been able to sign Dyce in FA because Withrow is a good defender and can hit and play 1B. So why should I have been allowed to sign Dyce?
And your teling me that a 91 contact hitter sucks now. So I guess I need to look for 100 rated players only. Good luck with that.
Look, I dont care how any of you run your teams. This is supposed to be my team. And I should be able to run it how I see fit. Did I run the team into the ground with this trade? No. I am actively trying to improve it. Will these 2 players do that? Who knows? But Im trying to find out. Will 5 prospects sitting in the minors for 2-5 years help me win this season? I dont think so.
Again, If I got fleeced, bad on me and I learn and next season I trade my picks for a better package. If I win the West because I improved my team this season, then I guess I made a good trade.
Sometimes there are winners and losers in a trade. If I lost on this trade, I will learn and try better next time. If I won, then good for me.
But we will never know, I guess, since this trade was nixed. But Im trying to take a 54 win team and win the West. I see Cobb and Woodyard as players that will help me, now. Not in 2-5 seasons, but now. Did I get an all-star player? Maybe, its not the all-star break yet. Maybe I got 2 all star players.
As for the prospects I traded, Matteson is the only one I had plans for. But I have a backup plan. So it made him expendible. The other 2 pichers really didnt have a chance on my team. I have lots of SP prospects that are better and can add another with the 3 pick. So they werent going to do anything on my team. And no one came to me and asked for them. The only prospects people want are my 90+ rated SPs. I am not trading them.

And no one offered me a better trade. I am always around. Usually everyday. Anyone of you guys could have come to me and offered me a trade. No one did. So i went with a trade that I thought would help me.

***Atlbravesfan27*** · 09-05-2011, 07:07 PM

TEX, you said yourself that you didnt post that package of players for what you were looking for.. you completely contradict yourself by saying that nobody asked for that, but how can you when you said yourself you didnt post that???? If you were a longer tenured GM, this MIGHT get more consideration for approval, but even then, i still think this gets vetoed..

Yes, its your team, and within reason you can do what you want with them, but the problem for every league is new guys taking over a team, making trades like this that dont work out, then they leave and have made several trades that hurt the team.. We are trying to not only avoid that, but try to get you to understand you could get a much better player for that package.. the 3 prospects you traded alone are overpayment in my opinion, not to mention the picks.. We(trade mods) arent trying to run your team for you, but trying to look out for whats best for the league and i hope you can understand that

09-05-2011, 07:32 PM

How does this hurt the league?
My minors are chock full of prospects? Im not hurting anyone or anything. In fact, Im improving the league by making Philly better in the long term and making Texas better in the short term. And, really, both those players are 24. So it helps Texas in the long run as well.

And, in fact, I stated on the chat room I was looking for a 3B and a 2B. I didnt post it on the message board. So, really, there is no contradiction. I have actively tried to acquire a 3B and, recently, a LF.

The mods logic is flawed. I dont think I lost on this trade. But 3 random guys who think this trade somehow hurts the league do. All I have heard is that it is getting denied because they think I could have gotten a better deal. Well, that could be said for any trade. Anyone can find a better deal.

This has to be the single most stupid thing I have ever seen in any MP league Ive ever been in. And Ive been in MP leagues for the last 10-15 years from mogul to FOF to DDSPB. Never has a trade been denied. And never have I left a team in worse shape then when I arrived. in fact, I routinely take on projects because I like the challenge of rebuilding it to a winner. But I dont like to wait for 3-5 seasons to do it. i try and do it now.

Again, explain to me in a logical way that this trade hurts the league. Im tired of hearing I could have gotten a better deal. So, dont use that reasoning.

***Atlbravesfan27*** · 09-05-2011, 07:44 PM

Well, i'm tired of hearing this deal makes you better. In my opinion, Cobb sucks. Even with 91 contact, his horrible eye rating will never allow him to hit 300 in this league, he has no arm and no range defensively.. you could acquire a guy like this for a small cash amount or AT WORST a 3rd rounder..The LF COULD be ok, but trading most of your draft and the other spects is SEVERE overpayment. Its been stated several times how this trade could hurt the league, in particular Tex many times already. I'm sorry you think Trade mods are stupid but they are absolutely necessary.. as stated, it happens all the time where a new GM comes in, makes 2 or 3 bad trades and leaves them crippled or with just flat out dumb trades.. and posting it in the chat room is about as flawed as it comes my friend, posting in the chat will stay there for what, a few min before it gets lost in chatter.. you should have posted it on the board for everyone to clearly see.. not to be a dick, but you can argue your point all day long with me and you wont get an approval from me...maybe you can convince the other mods, but wont happen here..

***AndyP*** · 09-05-2011, 07:45 PM

(09-05-2011, 07:32 PM)Textom Wrote: Again, explain to me in a logical way that this trade hurts the league. Im tired of hearing I could have gotten a better deal. So, dont use that reasoning.

Quite frankly, you don't appear willing to understand the opposing point of view.

The mods here have been here for quite awhile and can put this trade in the context of hundreds of other trades to evaluate it. We understand the value you're getting and giving. To be honest, this trade makes it clear you don't. As someone who just a few weeks ago needed a tutorial on the game, I would suggest you be more open to what people are trying to explain here.

This deal is not a good one for Texas. It's ridiculously awful in fact. It's not good for the league for a deal this bad for one franchise to go through because it hurts the league's ability to retain a GM for Texas should you leave.

psbaseballfan27 · 09-05-2011, 08:04 PM

(09-05-2011, 06:40 PM)AndyP Wrote: So will some of the people that have historically spent hours bitching at me have something to say for why we protect new GMs and why the "no one else offered me anything" defenses have been very fairly moderated so far? Because trades like this are why we do that.

Texas, I understand your reason but this is a veto. You simply don't have a concept for the value of the draft picks you are trading and that is remarkably clear by this offer. Historically, the talent you're getting are worth a 4th/5th combo at most. One could argue you'd get a better player if you signed Jacob Armstrong from the FA list.

We don't let new GMs "learn this lesson" by getting slammed in trades because it's bad for the league. While I'm sure you would have every intention of continuing to GM the team even after you realize what a disaster this is, but as a whole the league can't chance that or allow another team in the league to take such clear advantage of a newbie's lack of prospective on player/pick value. You're welcome to acquire these players, just do it within the same galaxy of value. You can even overpay, just not to this level of ridiculousness.

No I stand with my position that vetoes should be a rarly used tool. In the past trade mods vetoed a lot of trades based on the fact that they were bad trades and not that they hurt the league. Having said this the trade will hurt the league because it could destroy texas for several years and philly can gain a huge boost in just one trade. In short, this is just a bad trade all around and can hurt the league.

Cdawg · 09-05-2011, 08:15 PM

To put in in general perspective in terms of draft pick value(please take it from me, that's the pick I hovered around for about 3 seasons) the 2nd gets you something like a 68/87 prospect. the 3rd can net you a prospect of 63/83 value(infact I traded a 2B that is 88 peak) That 4th still is a prospect like 60/80.

Now to put it in #'s you traded 7-2...yes 7 players for 2. LOGICALLY your trading an allstar for 3-4 players. Ask Mike. Last year I traded Bryan Deforest a 52/80(I beleive) for 2...yes 2 players...1 78/78 player and an 84 overall Martin Prado. Find Prado on my team and ask yourself what a 90ish contact hitter is doing hitting .260?
.260 is very pedestrian in any sense and in any league. Infact minus age and Cobb and Prado are solid comparisons. Cobb has not proved that he is earning that 82 power judging by his .360 slugging. again the number .360 is extremely mediocre.

This is gonna get denied and your best bet is to ASK someone what fair value is your basically trading in 1,000,000 in Euros and expecting 1,000,000 in American dollars... if you know the currency exchange(last I remember) the rate is 5:3 for every 5 Euros you get 3 American Dollars.