White Sox

[AndyP]

Clypse has been fired from the White Sox, let me be clear why:

1) The other day the Cincy/CHW was posted. Prior to that I was contacted on XAT about the deal. I reached out to Peter and Matty about the trade and both thought it deserved a veto. I PC'd Clypse and asked him not to post the trade because every obvious veto becomes a shit-storm. There are always a handful of people that argue for the sake of arguing, creates a bunch of BS, and generally is a huge headache for me. So asked it not to be posted. He posted it anyway.

2) This apparently was a huge problem because my explanation made his players have no value and ruined his ability to GM. A problem, I pointed out, could have been avoided if he had done as I asked.

3) The veto has less to do with Clypse as it does with concerns about the way in which it went down. Woolland was not shopped, finances could have been taken care of with draft pick sales, and the value was terrible. Had this deal happened between any two established GMs...like always...it likely would have gone straight through. That isn't the case in this instance.

4) I heard from a good portion of you that you supported the veto, however I was told by Clypse that "most" of the league says something different. In fact, I was told "most" of the league believes I am a cheater, a dictator, and that I do whatever I want.

Only a few "yes men" that say whatever I want are the ones that matter.

He accused me of making his players drop.

He accused me of helping Peter, GB, and others stay on top.

He accused me of purposefully keeping some GMs down.

He accused me of caring only about myself and pretending to care about the league.

He said he posted the bad trade as a negotiation tactic and that I was wrong to be upset and being too dramatic about it.

He purposely posted a terrible deal with Mike to piss me off.

And, the straw that broke the camel's back, he basically said I do this because I love it so I shouldn't complain when people waste my time and create drama because that's what I signed up for.

So...yeah. If he starts talking shit elsewhere...I wanted it all crystal clear here. After the first trade he came to me and said he was sorry and emotional and I accepted the apology. I moved on and was prepared to put it behind me. Then this deal tonight and the string of stupid claims above and that's it for me. He was being a bitch and I made no effort to hide how I felt about that, but it was totally unnecessary. Things could've been done after the veto. They could've been done before that if he had just listened to me when I begged him not to post it.

This is only the second GM I've fired. I hate doing it, tried not to, but at some point....I'm just not getting paid enough to put up with it.

Just wanted it out there. See all you "yes men" at the draft....

[cadmus2166]

Anybody who knows you at all and has spent any significant time in the league knows that you don't veto deals lightly and without good reason. It's also obvious to anyone who has spent much time here that you care a great deal about the league and that you wouldn't fire a GM unless they were being a complete ass. Your integrity is not in question here at all, nor is your commitment to running a fair and fun league. Thanks for putting so much time and energy into this league and making it a place that is truly enjoyable.

[AndyP]

I have nothing to hide, so here is what Clypse is posting elsewhere:

I'd just like to start off by apologizing to anyone that got named on this post. Guys like Peter, GB and others who were of obvious mention.

1) I'll be completely honest with y'all. I don't pay attention enough to whats happening in the league to know what "veto shit storms" are like. Hell, I didn't even see the Milton deal nor the Milton deal storm. I guess that's my fault for only caring about my team, though.

2) Yes, I was told by Andy not to post the trade. However, I threw in a piece to see if maybe i could get a few guys on my side to help it go through or even allow Andy to see he was protecting his "baby". Funny, seeing as those weren’t my words. My thoughts were "no harm, no foul" in posting the trade. Once again, the "veto shit storm" that happens in this league doesn't seem that apparent. If it happens behind closed doors then what more am I supposed to expect? After I had posted the trade, I did understand what the shit storm was like as I was in the middle of it with Andy. I logged off, came back and apologized. I felt bad for going off on him about the trade. I'm here to win. That's the only reason why I play mogul. It is fun, yes but it's just my competitive nature to win.

3) I understand what the veto was about. It made sense. He has to protect Theo because he is new to mogul and the league. I was even told at one point "Maybe Andy has finally let up on Theo". This to me meant "funk it", green light. Rest of this part was just the micromanaging that Theo needed.

4) This statement was completely misconstrued. Here's the thing, I did say "most" of the league was in opposition of him. However, It wasn't most as it was just a few guys that came to me of support. Which apparently were all turned against me because Andy told me "not to post it". lol I did infact tell him that most of the league believes that he is a cheater. I did rescind that comment later on as I told him it wasn't "most of the league" but there were a few guys in the league and outside of the league that has brought it up to me in the past. I still think its funny that you truly believe you're accusationless in this subject. I did NOT say that most of the league believed he was a dictator or that he could do whatever he wanted. I called him a dictator for a few reasons.

A. He told me "Not to post the trade" and when I did, he publically trashed my players. Then said, "its your fault".
B. The reason why i argued with him about publically trashing my players is because of my credibility as a GM. Also my players. Once again, my voice did not matter in the instance as i was continued to be called a "moron".

I did say the "yes men" thing. I don't regret that at all. If you don't feel you're a "yes man" then you aren't. That's not hard to get understand.

I never accused him of making his players drop. I only complained about my players dropping as more than half my ML team last year took dives. Woodbury was like a 91 to begin the season and we sit this year at 77. Thats my own problem. Never did i accuse him of that. Idk why you said it that way.

I never once mentioned any names. Peter and GB you were NEVER mentioned in any of this context. He himself posted the names. Still don't understand why.

I did "accuse" him of "purposefully keeping some GMs down". I wonder why he never put any names there. I'm not the only one that feels this way.

I didn't directly accuse him of only caring about himself and pretending about the league. The main thing I brought up was as an admin he should be looking out for all GMs and their credibility as players in this league. I feel like i was not taken care of in the slightest. All because i was TOLD not too. lol

I feel he was over-dramatic about the trade and the veto, yes.

I did purposely get that deal to go through so you'd maybe understand what i was going through. Guess not.

Sure, I did break the camel's back with that statement. However, it came at the end of the argument when he wanted to tell me all of his sacrifices that he's making for the league. I'm glad you love the league so much that you're willing to do the things you named to me in private. I do however think its crazy to try and lay them on me in an attempt of pity because I'm still here trying to get my credibility back as a GM.

For my final reply...I had no problem with the actual veto after awhile. I was stupid for going after him in private about it. I apologized, however the next day it became apparent of how much everyone thinks of Andy and his stamp of approval. I shopped my guys to a few other teams(Who even had interest before) to get the cold shoulder or replied with the "Shiny turd" comment. At this point it became clear to me that I could almost do nothing in terms of furthering my team in their championship run. Andy, to this league you are the twitter guy with 1Million followers and you should know its your responsibility for the stuff you put out. I feel you were irresponsible in calling out my farm because you were "Upset" about me not following your orders. Your orders, dude....I didn't follow your orders and i get trashed. But that's my fault. Is that not what a dictator does? lol I like how when I brought that up he brought up how many GMs he's fired. Goodness, your perception seems to be lost. Anyways, you continually say "i begged him not to post it". I'm sorry man but you never "Begged" me. You said it one time that it was gonna be vetoed. Also, you actually never told me directly to post the trade but that's fine. I don't want to sound like I'm nitpicking.

Hilariously enough, this won't be seen by half the guys in this league but I'll make it my duty to get it out as far as I can. Why? My credibility as a GM means a lot to me. I apologize for any disparaging remarks that were made to you Andy, but I will NOT apologize for doing my best to fight the machine for my own credibility. All because i didn't follow your orders. That's sad man. Everything in this post is true and if Andy wants to show off screenshots then so be it. There's not much else to say. I apologize to the league if you felt you were pointed out or felt that the way I was portrayed made you all out to seem like jackasses but hey. That's not my perception. I've become good friends with a lot of people here and I hope to see you all around. Some i will as we are in other leagues but thats fine.

Thanks for the fun times and i hope Vert can continue competing with my team.

To clarify:

1) The "piece" thrown in was Daland. You make your own call about his "talent".

2) I do show care for all GMs which is why I did all of the following things for Clypse:

a) He missed two consecutive resignings where I did them for him, allowed him to change anything I did, and gave no penalty. In fact, I believe I said something to the effect of "it happens, no worries"

Strange thing for me to do if I'm such a jerk huh/

b) frequently helped advise his team from stadium lay out, drafting, development, and roster construction

c) Asked him not to post a trade that would create a situation in which I necessarily was going to have to say negative things about the value of the offer which would imply the pieces he gave up weren't valuable. Every trade veto and explanation comes with a host of problems, among which are forcing other GMs to talk about how they view players in the package.

So for selfish and unselfish reasons I asked him not to post it. He chose not to listen. Then he chose to further complicate the issue days later with an immature, unnecessary rant and posted trade. At some point, grow up. The situation was your own doing, accept the results or be actually sorry for causing them.

[AndyP]

Oh, and one more quick thing:

Talk to anyone who has been an admin - rocky, Vert, nwu, Hokey, matty, Leb, etc - and they'll tell you veto situations are always shitty for an admin. You have 5 guys that never think any trade should happen, 5 that think every trade should happen, 5 that rally around their buddy one way or the other, etc. And you have to weave your way through all that nonsense to do what's best for the league. It's a no-win situation every time.

And we don't veto often, only when new or suspect GM work is being done. By and large, if you've been here awhile and your'e trading with someone else that has also been here awhile - it goes through no questions asked. This is a policy I prefer and one I think works best. Even then though, I have some people that push against it. So know that any admin you work with deals with a LOT of private conversations to defuse situations and complaints about many things, but trades most of all.

And if you post something you even suspect might get vetoed know that here some things that will automatically come with it:

a) Your peers will judge you. If you are the ripper - they will develop a reputation about you, mock you, and it may hurt your ability to make moves. If you are the rippee - you will be targeted by vultures and you will hurt your ability to be competitive.

b) Mods, when they weigh in, basically have no choice but to comment on the nature of the deal which will (directly or indirectly) cast value on your players and change league perception.

c) It will create a shitstorm. Always. Always. Always. For the reasons listed above.

So just check with an admin or someone whose opinion you trust if you're not sure. You'll save yourself a ton of hassle and the league will be better for it.

[mike]

I know I don't need to say any of these things as anyone who has been here awhile knows better but there may be new people or maybe some people may benefit by reading this whether they are in the league or not.

Most of you know may know I'm not always Andy's biggest fan and I bet he would he say the same thing about me. We may want the same things but the process, or thought or what's right and wrong can be way different. And sometimes straight up we can have totally different views. Things can easily get heated between him and I. Prolly cause I treat this more than just a hobby. One thing I would never do though is question his character. The dude is without question (in my opinion of course) the best GM I've ever seen. I've been playing in leagues since I was 16, longer if you want to count where I'd have 2,3 or 4 or so friends doing a franchise in NHL, Eastside, Madden etc. I've seen the best, been the best, played with the best and heard stories about the best. Andy is the best. That was a given before he ever had any passwords. Any cheating claims are simply not true. Furthermore, a guy who cheats or holds people down or whatever you want to call it would never run a league. Those characteristic traits do not coincide. Who on gods green earth would put up with me or any other of the required bullshit to run a league if all they wanted to do was cheat or hold someone down? Let alone the time investment. Some of you may not know as I kept it fairly private, with only Andy, Corey, Vert and Poldi that I had quit for a week. Not due to Andy per se although it got heated but I was fed up with a bunch of things and then the exchange we had didn't help. Andy asked me back/to reconsider on 3 different occasions. He wasn't begging, he wasn't desperate about it, man to man he just wanted me to stay. Someone who has shitty character, or wants to cheat or what have you would never want to keep me here. I can be a pain in the ass. I'm passionate when it comes to mogul and if I see dumb shit happening I'll mention it and even sometimes take it too far. Not many would put up with that or if they did they would say stfu or leave. Which Andy does not. I may not like Andy always but I sure respect him to the moon and back for what he did and continues to do in providing a league where I don't have to step up and do the day to day things as unless it was maybe doing a sim a week or something small I'd never be able to handle it all nor would I want to. I'm here in this league still because he asked me to be. So if anyone wants to say he holds people down, cheats or any stupid crap like that tell them to get some proof or gtfo. Infact, if you think that way please PM me wherever you can so I can add you to the list of people I don't want to mogul with.